Socialism vs Capitalism

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by NateTheSpaceFox, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. Bella is too lazy to read a 500 word article in the Chicago Tribune...Sears isn’t paying 8.4 million in bonuses unless a determined performance over the next six months is achieved.

    The rest of the money will be spent on retaining top level talent. Ever ran a multi-million dollar business Bella? Ever recruited executives Bella? What would you do if your company filed for bankruptcy and had a small window to correct ship?

    But hey, I get it, the intellectually lazy love the drive by media and are only concerned with sensational headlines...

    You’re correct though Bella, capitalism produces winners and losers. One might even make a comparison to nature in that the slower and weaker are weeded out by the stronger.

    Another dishonest attempt to control the narrative by only offering a pinch of the truth.
     
  2. I’m sorry that you only read one article pertaining to this particular form of capitalism. But since you brought up an accusation against me, let me rebut.

    Sears is going in on the 20th to bankruptcy court to get approval for an $8.9 million dollar pool to be divided amongst 18 high ranking positions of the company. They are also seeking a $16.9 million dollar pool to pay 322 non-inside workers. I don’t think we can assume what their targets are, and quite frankly they could be low. They just need the courts approval for these pools.

    Either way, thousands of employees not getting a severance while top employees get millions in bonuses? Ok then. I’ll reiterate my comment again because you clearly missed it the first time, Dugan:

    Here is your capitalism. :lol:

     
  3. You really don’t have a clue Bella.

    Move to Venezuela if you don’t like the western worlds economic system. I’ve heard they are fair in their inabilities to feed everyone equally.
     
  4. I’m sorry, where did I say I didn’t like the western worlds economy? I said there are pros and cons to both capitalism and socialism and that intertwining components of both could have greater benefits than just one or the other.
     
  5. Don’t worry capitalism that favour the 1% will end sooner or later. The automated manufacturing and farming will change world wide economy. Capitalism will not sustain itself when average workers can only work 6 hours a day and the rest of the day is educate themselves further. Capitalism only works with consumers. Capitalism push us forward in innovation that help human kind. Still capitalism theory have its limit.
     

  6. Ummm no Bella, the court ruled on Friday, December 7, 2018. What I posted in an earlier post is EXACTLY what the judge signed off on according to the Chicago Tribune who broke the story originally.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-sears-bonuses-bankruptcy-court-1215-story,amp.html

    It appears you’re reading articles that were posted over a month ago.

    In regard to severance, that wasn’t an issue that related to their request or the ruling. It remains to be seen what will happen.

    As for quoting me. I used the conjunction “if” as a conditional clause. It could be true but it’s not necessarily true. Certain conditions must be met before it’s considered true. For example, “IF you don’t like capitalism Bella, move to Venezuela but IF you do, continue on.”

    Finally, explain why you posted “Here is your capitalism. (Laughing emoji)” followed by that picture. If you’re impartial to both economic theories, why would you only post that? You’ll ignore this though because answering it would expose you for the fraud that you are.

    I can’t even make this stuff up. You’re such an imbecile that you got the facts wrong on your original post.

    But what can we expect from the Unoriginal Belladonna, copy and paste queen of kaw? As history has shown us, not a whole lot.
     
  7. Let's get riggety wrekt
     
  8. Dugan, the fact that the top execs are getting $25 million in bonuses while the lower workers get nothing is why I posted that meme and the comment with it. If you can’t understand that by now, there’s no point in continuing because you’re arguing for the sake of arguing. You’re wrong, dude.

    Capitalism is the notion of amassing an empire of wealth off the backs of individuals who eventually get the shaft. Like sears in this case.

    Socialism is the notion of giving things out equally without the expectation of amassing an empire of wealth. Something sears did not do. Do you now understand why I posted that?
     
  9. Read the article! They aren’t getting 25 million in bonuses you half-wit. Quit misrepresenting the truth as your own peverse reality! Seriously, how are you this dense? It’s all there for the world to see, including you.

    A handful of executives are ELIGIBLE for bonuses that total 8.4 million if the conditions of performance are met in the given time frame. THEY ARE NOT GUARANTEED, I REPEAT, THEY ARE NOT GUARANTEED.

    The remaining 16.9 million is to be used on retaining talent. This is important to the survival of Sears for two reasons. 1) They have already seen people leave the company that have been deemed essential. These bonuses will serve as a way to incentivize others in similar roles to stay with the company. 2) Recruitment costs are astronomical and take a tremendous amount of time to deliver on. Sears already has a negative brand image, so attracting qualified personnel for these positions with what the public knows about Sears issues would be difficult at best. In the position Sears is in, it wouldn’t make sense to replace the 300 people with new personnel. Recruiting costs and time are working against them. Under a new CEO, Sears has the chance to make meaningful changes in their operations, marketing, oversight practices and business plans.

    What would you do Bella if you were in charge of Sears?

    Well done Bella, nothing screams support for capitalism like this gem taken straight from academia. Not even considering your above statemen, your single example of a failing company in the already weakened brick and mortar retail sector demonstrates your true beliefs about capitalism.

    The simple truth is those being let go at the bottom are replaceable. Unfortunately, they lack marketable skills that are deemed essential or in demand. But there’s good news, each and everyone of them in a capitalist economy have the ability and resources to change that.

    This may come as a surprise to you but life isn’t fair and nor is it intended to be. Every single decision made has consequences regardless of outcome. Those consequence can be negative or positive. However, in an economy that favors capitalism and a free market, everyone has the ability and fair chance to create wealth equally. This of course doesn’t mean there is an absence of challenges to overcome. Capitalism, however, offers the individual the incentives to do so because it nurtures the human spirit, inspires human creativity and promotes the spirit of enterprise.

    It’s humorous that you portray capitalism in such a negative light but fail to do the same for socialist economic theory. It’s clear to see that you don’t favor one over the other. I don’t care what you’ve said previously, your actions prove otherwise.

    You’re right though Bella. Socialism paints a very compelling picture of a grand utopia of fairness but it fails to deliver. Tell me, where would you rather be poor, North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba or the USA?

    Do you think any of the leaders in Venezuela, or Cuba share the same hardships as their poorest citizens? What do you think those leaders are eating for dinner tonight? I’m willing to bet it’s not stale bread and chicken broth. I guess that’s fair as the leaders are really important people and deserve so much more off the backs of their citizens. After all, their skill sets are far above those working the factories...

    Of course your version would work because all others that have come before simply haven’t done it right, right?

    So yes Bella, I understand why you posted that. You support socialist economy theory but fail to offer examples of its failures or successes. You can’t offer examples of its success because there isn’t one, and ignore the failures because it wouldn’t support your true feelings. Therefore you pick and choose to provide a failing (notice I didn’t say failed) example of one company participating in capitalism.

    See this discussion is really about a belief in individualism. You either believe the individual knows what’s best for themselves and acts upon that belief or that big government does. As it relates to socialist economic theory or capitalism, what we should be asking is what functions should the government run and how?
     
  10. Then by all means, Dugan, post a meme regarding failed socialist economies. I don’t have to entertain your fantasy of having every meme imaginable in my camera roll. :lol:
     
  11. Weimar republic (Social democratic republic of Germany)
     
  12. Gotta break the news here..

    But a democratic government is all we need,
    Capitalism is a must, for a free market...

    Socialism doesn’t work due to humans being greedy and living life with many Xtals and gold sad but True, human nature is not forever and one day our species will bite the dust, probably some man-bear pig race or Kardhasian will survive. Cheers
     
  13. Capitalism aka a free enterprise market, meaning that each and every human being has the fair right to equally pursue happiness. From the lowest class to the highest, anyone can start a business or investment and not have their life dictated to them by the government on how they should live. The only reason this isn't celebrated enough is because too many are reliant on the freebies provided by the government and too many take their cushy comfortable life handed to them for granted. If you lived in a third world country you would kill to come a place where you could be helped and still have the opportunity to pursue whatever lifestyle you wanted. Most are disappointed when they do come because most people believe they are sheep indoctrinated into slaving their life away for money. In the information and technology age this system is becoming even more sustainable, opportunities to start businesses are rampantly rising, with today's factories now becoming the device in your hands, and artificial ai taking over the mundane jobs in the foreseeable future. Corruption, banks and control of information aside, (which is typical in any government throughout the ages) capitalism is a blessing.
    It is sad that there are 'capitalistic pigs' that become greedy and profit off the sweat of someone else yes, but these are the ones that are made public and you see the most. Many successful business owners are actually not as greedy, believe in helping their fellow human beings, advancing the human race, filling needs and are quietly living their earned good life, donating to causes that rely on them.
    Can you imagine a system that held Steve jobs, Mark zuckerberg, Jeff bezos and Elon musk back? We'd still be living in the farm/factory age. Lots here will dispute this but they probably don't know successful empathetic business owners while they are escaping life playing this game, or are under the boot of one, working for a dime of what they are actually worth. It's never too late to start monetizing that special skill you got in a much more profitable way but that requires change. A scary thought to most people but fortune favors the bold.
    I have only really touched on the ideals that capitalism represents, and not the ideals of socialism which I believe have a lot of merit as well, but not as well as the promise that equal opportunity does. So while there's a lot of room to dispute the details and history of facts, I am not a political expert, or successful, but I know people who are and have influenced me on this belief, and I used to be very angry on this topic like you might be, reading this. It's good to stand for something with conviction. That being said I won't engage in a debate yet I believe there is always room for improvement in the system.
     
  14. Some great discussion in the thread, but also some ratholes. I think it would be helpful to discuss profit motive and individualism, and also some basics about why markets tend to perform their function extremely well with the proper set of rules. Duggan touched this a little bit but I think it forms the core of his argument.

    Prices and profit are information and incentives. They signal to us what is in demand, and tell us about the efficiency of the production.
     
  15. @Crewl

    Good idea!

    Some stats about the productivity and wage rates (US based):

    Since 1970 Productivity has increased around 210%
    Wages have increased only 109%

    Let us discuss why?

    My argument is mostly that the wage stat doesn’t account for the US policies for overtime pay for hourly wage workers and only use flat wage pay for the percentage.
     
  16. "Equal opportunity"... lmao 4 days(in a sad satirical kinda way lol). If you guys really did your research you'd know that's a load of crap. Socialism and capitalism both don't work and neither does any other form of governance currently. Until we have individual self reliance, free of corruption and greed, the world will just continue on with it's fate of a slow death... on a positive note though, atleast it's entertaining to watch it burn in the meantime XP
     
  17. I guess I’m lost on your definition of “work”
     

  18. The world is not infinite therefore we cannot consume resources unsustainably infidently, it is denied by a certain political side but consumerism is economic suicide, its just long term, and veiled by short term gains. The damage is already visible, every generation after the baby boomers having less then the one before it, the slowly increasing sacrity of resources and the valuation of the stock holder over both the employees and the consumer causes companies to squeeze every single penny of profit they can from their business.
     
  19. Capitalism and consumerism are not the same thing. Capitalism is an economic system while consumerism is a motivator of behavior. In today’s world, the two are highly intertwined, but shouldn’t be confused as being the same. Just because today’s capitalist uses consumerism as a tool to generate profit and growth, doesn’t mean that 100 years from now that will remain true or that the psychology of consumerism will remain the same.

    Does the socialist not consume raw materials? Does the socialist not produce goods and services that are consumed? I’m particularly interested in what consumerism looks like in China, a socialist economy. How much do they consume?

    The argument that consumerism uses more and faster, isn’t relevant when the end sum is the the total depletion of resources. The difference however is capitalism utilizing free market principles has the ability to identify inefficiencies, develop a solution, monetize on it and isn’t hampered by bureaucratic red tape (respectfully of course).

    Again, there is no denying that capitalism focuses on profit and growth and produces winners and losers. You cannot however, deny the opportunity capitalism creates nor its ability to identify inefficiencies and correct them.

    There is a shift in the profit-at-all-costs philosophy however, as more companies are not solely focusing on profits as the main driver but are focusing on issues of scarcity, sustainability and people (consumer and worker alike). We also see employee owned models that are proving to be effective as well. Similarly, there are many companies that aren’t profit motivated in their current business model. Amazon being the best example.

    I do understand the attraction to socialism. It sounds great, but it simply hasn’t worked. If you think I’m wrong, then I encourage you to move to a place where it’s in full practice and discover for yourself first hand. Perhaps you’ll prove me wrong...
     
  20. Socialism alone is as bad an idea is as capitalism alone. The most workable system (not the best) at the moment for us is one that combines different economic and social practices into what we have now.

    There are great socialist practices we use these days like:
    Military
    Emergency Services (fire truck, police, and ambulance)
    Universal Healthcare - Which we also combine with Privatised Healthcare to get both systems.
    Prisons
    Education, the Government also provides us with non-interest accumulating loans that you don’t need to pay back until you earn over x amount a year.
    Welfare benefits for single parents, sick, elderly, injured, disabled, and homeless.

    All these are socialist ideas that we have implemented into society with amazing success within a capitalist framework.
    A general term for this type of society is social democracy. It works very well for us.


    As you may have seen above I included “(not the best)” in brackets, the truth is, there is no ‘best’ system of governance, every system works for different people dependant on their culture, society, and beliefs.

    For some democracy is the best, for others fascism, some maybe prefer monarchies or dictatorships, communism.
    There are so many different ways to rule throughout history and everyone had their own.
    From Sparta to 16th Century Britain, USSR, Feudal Japan, Sultans of the Middle East, Greek Democracy, Roman Dictatorships/Senate, Nordic Social Democracy.

    I could be here for hours naming every different type of ruling in history. They all worked until they didn’t, the same will happen to us, in 500 years our systems that we thought amazing and revolutionary will be nothing more than something people study so they don’t make the same mistakes we did.