Re look at history because you don't understand it. Jesus Christ you watch Fox News to much http://infidels.org/library/modern/farr ... /myth.html
I just personally feel that schools shouldnt shove religion down anyone's throats but standard morales to live by I am more than happy with. People should make a choice on religion when theyre old enough, not enforced and influenced by school
That's a good read Sansea, however doom is still partially right, it was founded on religious beliefs ASWELL as rebellion from the empire. Basically, your founding fathers felt mistreated (probably were) by the empires government. They also didn't agree with the main branch of the Church of England (dominant in england in the 18th century) So it wasn't entirely religious, and it wasn't Christian as we know it to be now
You just helped crystallize why I feel uncomfortable when I see images of rooms full of little American kids saying the pledge. It IS pure indoctrination and it does mimic what a lot of banana republics do. Instead of pulling "under God" out of the pledge, I think they should just remove the pledge entirely, as its at best silly and at worst indoctrination
Moose, I totally agree with removing the pledge altogether (this is what? Second time we've agreed on anything?). I posed the question because it appears to me that the proponents of mandating the pledge are using the term "patriotism" to defend forcing children to acknowledge god from a young age. As expected, we have not yet heard from anyone who would support the pledge for the sake of the country, but would be happy to get rid of the religious part.
It depends. I think it's fine to have "In God We Trust" etc. in US public schools. And I think it should be okay to have a moment of silence for a few seconds after the pledge. No one is making you say a prayer. And if you say you can't have the moment of silence, doesn't that break the "prohibit free exercise thereof" part of the 1st amendment? "Separation of church and state" never appears in the Constitution. It was first used in private in a personal letter by Thomas Jefferson, to a group called the Danbury Baptists. And it didn't mean you couldn't have any religion whatsoever in schools, courthouses etc., it meant that the government couldn't get involved with the people's religion. However, the First Amendment also prohibits a school having an assembly where all the students get Mass done by a Catholic priest. The school shouldn't make students participate in a religious activity. However, a moment of silence isn't necessarily religious. If the atheist kid doesn't want to pray, he shouldn't have to. But the moment of silence isn't for him. It's for the Christian kid next to him. Or the Jewish girl across the room. It's so they can have a moment to say a quick prayer. And if the school doesn't want to have the moment of silence, they shouldn't have to, unless state laws say otherwise. Speaking of state laws, I think the whole thing should be mostly relegated to the states- as in, the states should choose whether or not to have the moment of silence. But the FEDERAL government shouldn't. It's not the Federal governments business. That's my two cents. If the school has a moment of silence or has kids say the Pledge of Allegiance, then they should be able to have a moment of silence and have the kids say the Pledge. And the Pledge isn't mandatory. A kid doesn't have to say the Pledge if he doesn't want to, and a student who isn't a citizen doesn't have to say the Pledge. However, they should be required to stand. Not by legal, you won't get arrested, and if you can't stand up, you don't have to, but those that can stand up should out of respect for the place they're in. They don't have to say the Pledge, but they should show respect to the fact that they're standing on US soil by standing up if they're able, and not disrupting the Pledge the other kids are making. That's my two cents.
Its school for educating young minds. Leave personal matters out of it. Indoctrination can go elsewhere. Special interest groups disallowed. The pledge is ridiculous let kids be kids while in school. Politics have no place.
Exactly why is being patriotic to your country by saying a pledge (which you don't have to actually do), or if you aren't from that country, respectfully standing until the rest of the people say the pledge, showing respect for the traditions of the country you're in? If I travelled to Canada and went to school for a while there, and they had people say something similar to the US version, I would respectfully stand, be quiet, and not say the pledge. But I would stand still and be quiet for everyone else, out of respect for the country I'm in. Why can't that apply in US schools?
Sure, I suppose in an American class room, the kids don't have to stand and recite the pledge, but peer pressure is ENORMOUS. Can you imagine being the only one out of 30 kids who decided, nah, not gonna do my weekly pledge to the country. It's unrealistic. Secondly, the pledge is less patriotic and more if just blatant indoctrination. Kids as young as kindergarteners are doing it. They don't even really know what they are pledging allegiance too. Those kids should be worried about bug bird, not pledging allegiance to some super power. As for "traditions" I have little time for those too. Traditions are a way for people to check their brains at the door. "That's she way we do things because that's the way we always do things" Are you pro gay marriage? Tradition in America would say "no" to that movement. Are you a to slavery? Slavery is an American tradition. A bunch of presidents owned slaves, and it was only a minority of people in the northern states that decided to buck tradition and free the slaves. I need better reasons to justify the pledge, and I challenge anyone to come up with one
Citizenship works both ways. In the US, kids pledge allegiance to the flag, and the Republic. One Nation under God was added in the 50's to show we weren't like the Godless communists. I never had a problem pledging allegiance to the Republic. I enjoy the rights and privileges of citizenship of the Republic. It's not a bad Republic. There are much crappier ones. Besides, if you don't feel the country you claim your citizenship rights from is worth your loyalty, perhaps you're living in the wrong country?
There is a difference between being loyal to a civilized country (which is generally a good thing) and being forced (via peer pressure) to recite some silly pledge from the time you can talk, but, I digress......
There is yeah, the first should be earned through being shown the benefits of living in said country, what that country stands up for and it's general moral values. The second is nothing but conditioning of minors brains, they don't understand what they are saying and when they do peer pressure is so large there isn't really a valid option to not say it without losing popularity / potentially friends and risking bullying. - if given the choice of potentially being bullied for the rest of your school years, or saying a pledge that you don't believe in, 99% would say it - that doesn't make it right/moral/good or ethical that they have been forced to make that decision. Leave it out of school.
Um..... I didn't read all of the posts but.... Most schools (or all except Muslim schools) still do religious things like praying and sometimes having a mass (sometimes) either Muslim or Christian (in our country we have quite many religions, but none of us fight over it and we just let each other choose their own religion). Some Christians, well, are pretty bored of it, but still do it (you know, people are different base on their personalities and not base on their religion). But it was in our country. In other countries, where some are agnostic or atheist, I think they should separate the schools who do religious practices to the schools where most children don't do these practices. And if a child (or student I suppose) aren't religious (same as parents), then they should transfer to another school instead who do not do these practices. If the student is the only one who isn't religious in their family, then maybe they should tell ut to their parents and why. Welp, I guess other adults didn't know these stuff, which is a problem :/
You do realize that a public school is government grounds, right? And what part of "I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America" does the kindergartener not understand? It's the first part of the pledge. And slavery wasn't an American tradition. It was a terrible stain on our history, I'll admit that, but it isn't a tradition. And what does gay marriage have to do with American tradition? I don't understand how the words "under God" a automatically mean that everyone who says the pledge is being forced to be religious. They're not. A Muslim could say "under Allah" if they believed it was more appropriate, and an atheist could easily just not say that part of the pledge. And here's my last question- WHO CARES?
Oh, where's the main topic?..... Nah.... I'm gonna leave because I'm not an american anyway and since that I don't experience or even know any problems with the pledge about their own country. Our pledge are from our ancestors (not the tribe one, from our old known poets or novelists and stuff), and we follow it. And considering that we are a democratic country, the decision of all rule, unless our president... change the republic or became selfish and stuff.....
Best answer. And reminds me of stereotype people, who state the pledge very quiet as if not saying it at all. And many students don't even know what are they pledging on and just say it.And besides it's just up to a person if he/she will follow a pledge or not anyway..... Unless you are a kind of person who would want to follow each pledge and because the pledge is not good you can't get over pledging it. Besides, if you're not religious especially if your parents either, then just transfer. Oh yeah... I'm not an American.... Last bye bye... last...
Who cares? People who understand the separation of church and state. Also Allah under god? You know Allah is just Arabic for god right? So it would still be under god..... Or what be more appropriate would be removing under god because you know church and state..... But who cares what is that it's not like our country was founded as a secular country.
I guess his point was, if you are an American who values freedom of speech, religion, and expression, then you have to move around until you find a public school that espouses those values by not forcing kids to recite an indoctrination pledge, enforced by their peers.
Religion and school should be two entirely separate entities, unless you go to a specified religious school. School is a place for learning the facts, in no religion is there any fact that isn't arguable. So it should only be taught in those schools built on a foundation of religion.