Coming from Canada, where atheism (or more specifically people who are non-religious) is above 50% for people of my age and younger, I can tell you that atheists can be backwards too. I know atheists who think Trump is great, who think all Muslims are terrorists, and who think the illuminati is an actual thing (and believe in it with about the same evidence as religion). But don't be mistaken... there is a church in my town which preaches that being gay is a sin, that Muslims are evil, that evolution is a lie, etc. What I find is more that a lack of information is the cause of bigotry. Yes, religion is a factor, but it needs to go further. People need to learn to research things and know when a source of information is valid. It makes me cringe so much when people share a Facebook meme that has false statistics, that could so easily be checked in 10 seconds. I also have Christian friends that are very liberal, and who use Christianity as a tool for promoting liberalism. Christianity can be transformed and molded to fit any means or political end.
Something I see that keeps coming up is whether religion is "good" or "bad". For me that should not matter. If I gave you the story of Hansel and Gretel and told you that the story has good morals, then would you believe it to be true? Would it be good for society if everyone believed the story of Hansel and Gretel to be true? What if there was a scientific finding that showed a certain aspect of the story to be false, (ie. that a house made of candy is unreasonable in terms of engineering or structure, maybe that it would dissolve in rain or get covered in bugs) yet the majority of people reject this finding because they believe in the story? Regardless of a story's morals, if it gives reason to oppose science, and if it gives reason for millions of people to oppose evolution and lose trust in scientists on other issues (such as global warming), then the religion is clearly going against progress. But that's not my point. Even if the religion were TERRIBLE, but true, then it would be true. If there were a religion which required you to sacrifice your family, but scientific findings found it to be true and the prophecies proved to be very accurate, then there would be reason to believe in that religion. Therefore it is foolish to say that good morals justify a belief in a religion. The only measure for believing in religion should be whether the claims it makes are true or not.
Could have been a troll, but I don't really see many people getting pissed off about it. It seems to have been a productive thread so far.
Nice post, Nathan. Interesting take on the matter. I find a common theme of those who are against religion seem to think that anyone who holds those beliefs is delusional or ignorant or has an imaginary friend. IMO, that couldn't be further from the truth. Of course there are going to people (i.e. extremists) who take things completely out of context and proportion, but we don't need religion for that to happen. Having a belief in something greater than yourself or believing that there is a God does not make you delusional. To me, thinking like that is close minded and ignorant. It's fine if someone doesn't believe in religion. They don't have to believe in it and neither do they have to understand it. But those are THEIR views and it doesn't give them the right to tell anyone else they're delusional or to attack their beliefs. We all have our belief systems. Accept that we all put trust and value in different things. Some choose to rely on science others pick a more spiritual path. Both are fine. I fail to understand why people must insist that being religious suddenly makes you crazy and misinformed. I think it's a personal decision. If religion is used as an excuse for violence and to deny people their rights then yes, that is a problem. But it's not a religious problem it's people being ignorant and not understanding something and trying to use religion to justify that. Just my two cents worth :grin:
I have to disagree in the understanding part. I think it would be beneficial to everyone to try to understand the basic concepts of religions. No, you don't have to believe in a religion, but you should try to understand them (at least to a point). And this isn't just towards atheists, but all educated people in the world. It's easy to slander a religion such as Islam if you don't really understand it. And for Middle Eastern countries, you aren't just slandering a religion, but entire societies and cultures. In my opinion, and I know I'm probably gonna get a lot of heat for this, there should be mandatory religious class(es) in high school. Not to try to convince people to join a religion, not to show a hierarchy of religions, but to educate young people on the history of religions, on the basic concepts that most religions share, and probably what a religion actually is (as in definition). There would be less fear of Muslims (at least in younger generations) in the US. There could be wider varieties of solutions to problems to be heard, such as agreement on universal human rights or the global environmental crisis. Or classes such as these might not add anything to people's lives. However, i don't see how these classes could take away from people either. It would be educational, just like evolution, the big bang, and calculus.
I don't believe they have to understand it but then they can't expect to be able to make an informed decision on it. Everyone having an understanding is ideal but will never happen. I think it's highly offensive to throw around the terms delusional and crazy to anyone who believes religion is important. Some believe in science and some believe in science and religion. As I said earlier, it is a personal decision. We each have our own set of belief systems. Again, obviously it needs to be kept with in the bounds of the law. But if I choose to worship a god in my own home or pray every day, that doesn't effect anyone but me. Religions in schools will be a highly controversial issue. It might sound good in theory but the practicality of it is another matter. How do you decide what to religion to teach? How do you ensure it's purely for educational purposes and not someone forcing their ideals onto the younger generation? Younger people are easily impressionable. I think teaching people not to judge others and to be respectful of others is more important. As are a number of other things i.e. how to manage your finances, how to look for a job, how the health care system works etc. I can't see religion being mandatory in schools ever happening and tbh, I know that when I was in high school I'd never want to sit through a religion class every week. It's not realistic and theres more important things to teach, IMO. I think people need to learn to find the information and read it for themselves rather than rely on what the media portrays. Any educated individual knows that what the media says is generally far from the truth. If you base your opinions on that then naturally you will have a close minded and ignorant view of the world.
Trust me, I have thought about it a lot. The thing is, many people won't do their own research on religion to make informed statements, and those are the voices most often heard. I feel like in order for religion in public high school to work, you wouldn't focus on one religion. You would focus on all the current major world religions like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and some other smaller religions like religious naturalism and indigenous culture/religions. As to ensure the class(es) stay with in the law (other than changing the law), you look at religions through different lenses such as historical, political, sociological, ecological, and cultural. Again, not spreading a particular religion, but looking at them all in an academic way. Having the younger generations educated on these issues is important, possibly more important than having kids know the pythageron theorem (or whatever its called) because religion is something that affects the world on a daily basis, whether it's being used for good in a community or being abused for gains in individuals. And voters should be educated on religions like Islam because some politicians will make it seem like every Middle Eastern looking person could be a terrorist and that their terrorism is based on the Islamic religion. I will stop ranting now because that is a lot of information.
I'm just gonna say that I'm not religious anymore, but I grew up in a Christian household. Regretfully I am still in that household until I can afford a place of my own. I am an adult, but if I say anything even slightly out of line with my parents beliefs, things get bad for me. I am not allowed to express myself or my opinions freely without great consequences. I don't care if you're religious, but for the love all that is good in the world, DO NOT FORCE YOUR BELIEFS ON OTHER PEOPLE. This religion has made me bitter, and the way some of the people in this religion talk about others makes me sick to my stomach. Not all Christians (or people of any other religion) are like this, but many are. If you respect my beliefs and don't constantly challenge them, I will respect yours.
Wazz, religion is subject to interpretation. There's hundreds of narratives on Christianity, and hundreds more interpretations of other religions. What would the Christians say if their children were "forced" to learn about Islam? They already have a problem when it comes to evolution and science. Evangelicals would be pissed if their kids learned about Mormonism and the Jehovahs Witnesses would be pissed if their kids learned about Catholicism. I don't see that as a possibility - even if it were a possibility, and if it were implemented, I don't see any much good it would make, either. There are much more practical ways in which you can show that religions such as Islam are relatively not so bad when compared to Christianity. For example, if there were some expansion of history classes which showed the situation of Europe around the period 1000-1500, where the Ottomans (who were an Islamic Caliphate) were the most advanced power in Europe and were leaders in both religious tolerance and technology. This is in contrast to wars such as the 30-years war in Europe which was made along religious lines, or various genocides which occurred during the protestant reformation. Based on this historic knowledge along we can say that Islam is not fundamentally worse than Christianity. We can also point to other things such as Confucianism as being a not-bad force, as China was the world's most technologically advanced country until around 1600-1700 after algebra, the printing press, scientific method, and other things were invented in Europe. We also have to be weary about the very bad things that can occur due to religious control of the state. Part of the reason why the Ottomans fell so far behind was because a powerful person felt that science was going against their religious beliefs. It was after this that they started falling far behind in technology. There is also the example of Galileo being persecuted for publishing his scientific findings. Copernicus had to wait until his death bed to unveil his heliocentric model of the solar system. In a secular world we need to look at things from a secular perspective. We can take purely secular examples of why a religion is not necessarily evil, without actually learning a thing about the religion. A religion is nothing more than faith in some supernatural existence. I don't see why anyone should need to learn anything about a religion.
Nathan While i agree that there would be much controversy from both sides, i still think it would benefit at least every American of the younger generations who can get an education. Learning about a religion doesn't mean going through and reading religious texts. What I said was looking at religions through historical, political, sociological, ecological, and cultural lenses. This isn't to show that one religion is bad, it's to show why actions in the name of religion are caused, why the Middle East has different societal standards and structure. It's very close-minded to say that their society has failed. It just isn't the same as our democracy. It can also show how religion can be a use for community involvement to make change happen. Ghandi helped end British colonialism with his shared beliefs in Hinduism, Christianity, and other religions. MLKJ helped gain some racial equality following the same belief system, specifically in non-violence. Saying that religion is faith in supernatural existence is a misconception that I have brought up many times. Please refer to page 4 so I don't have to repeat myself again. Saying religion is only interpretation or that one shouldn't have to learn about it in a secular world based on information like this is a bit close-minded. The objective and the subjective go hand in hand. The secular world affects religions, religions affect the secular world. Understanding religions would be one step in many towards making the world a better place.
There is you're answer, human nature doesn't change, I believe in god, but I also think its there to keep us in check, doesn't matter how smart we get. Science will continue to evolve, but you can always count on human nature to remain the same
Saying human nature is false as an statement since there is not one case where everyone would act the same, do the same and react the same, Only the maturity. And added to my point, with the right knowledge and conditions, you can quite easily change people's ideas and believes.
Not that this has much to offer, just thought it was a bit funny.. "God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs." -Dr. Ian Malcolm "Dinosaur eats man. Woman inherits the earth." -Dr. Ellie Sattler
It is, and it shows the problems with not understanding something in science completely. I'm not anti-science, but I think things should be understood before exploited
All religions are manmade. Point blank period. I dont judge anyone's beliefs and i dont believe its the main cause behind wars....its the individuals negative/ false perception on their beliefs which i believe causes war