Even if he is not saying it (which he is) it is a valid argument. This is a pretty good read on the issue to explain it. http://carm.org/atheism-moral-problem A pretty good example and summary is found here... "The atheist regime in the Soviet Union slaughtered 6 million of its own people by starving them to death. Adolf Hitler killed 6 million Jews from all over Europe. The moral of the story is that without an objective set of morals based on “the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God” as it says in the American Declaration of Independence, morality is simply a matter of opinion. For example, the atheists claims that in the Bible, God committed genocide when he eradicated evil people. While at the same time, the atheist advocates abortion which is the genocide of innocent unborn children. Christian ethics hold that the eradication of evil is good and that the slaughter of the innocent by the 10’s of millions is genocide, and therefore immoral. Clearly, atheist “morality” leaves much to be desired, namely reason, logic and compassion, the very attributes that atheists claim to champion Consequently, the atheist himself proves that atheism cannot be moral. The atheist simply imitates those Christian values he favors and discards those he doesn’t." http://silenceofmind.wordpress.com/2014 ... -be-moral/
One mere person cannot save an EB, I say max crystal, but use the troops on him for his outlandish idea.
We are not all like the nazis. Children abortion is hardly allowed to be called into this as they aren't sentient and thus you do not kill a human, you kill a human to be. We have more logic than believing in a book of wonders. We have reason because we don't believe in such illogical thoughts and ideologies. Are you saying that we cannot be compassionate? That we cannot love or believe in a cause? We can be moral, the only difference is that our morals weren't handed to us. We don't imitate your values, I already answered this if you had care to read the thread. I however will restate our (or my) views of values. Values and morals cannot be owned nor are they created by a sole person or by a god. They are ideas that you believe in. An example is that I believe that saying Atheists are immoral and stupid. Morals and values cannot be taken from anyone because they are morals and values. No one made them and thus no one may lay claim to them. Your book of tales may say certain morals are the "true path" or the "right way to live". That doesn't mean morals are taken from your book. This is all logic, yet you claim it is something we lack. Another personal point here to those who are "more logical" why the Hell do you keep coming to my door to ask if I want to go to toe church or to speak of your god? I said no the last 20 times what has changed?
Actually, God did give us morals. Scripture tells us that God is a Good God, and that we are created in his image. When it says that we are created in his image part of that is that we were created with the Moral code that God has. These are the laws of Norms. However As Augustine said, God did not create humans immutable in their moral goodness. That is where our "freewill" is. If God created man to be immutable in his goodness and free to choose in other areas so that evil was not a choice then God would not have accomplished a second purpose, he not only wanted free creaturs; he also wanted an abundance, that is the greatest good possible. The highest good, the best of all possible worlds requires more then just general freedom, it requires moral freedom. And that necessarily entails the possability of evil. Lets talk about evil now: Some say God is evil because he allows evil or "created it" as the bible says that God is the creator of everyTHING. 1st, All things that God created are good. Evil is not Good, therefore, evil was not created by God. 2nd, God created everything. God did not create evil, therefore, evil is not a thing. Evil has no posative nature: but the loss of good has received the same name as evil...evil is a moral hole. Augustine observed that evil could not be chosen because there is no evil thing to choose. One can only turn away from the good, that is from the greater good to a lesser good, since all things are good. "For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil, not because of what it turnss to is evil, but because the turning itself is wicked." -Augustine Evil, then, is the act itself of choosing the lesser good. To augustine the source of evil is the free will of persons. Evil was a perversion of the will, turned aside from God to lesser things. Man was created morally perfect, even though he wasn't immutable (unable to change) in this perfection (NOTE: aestheic perfections is different from perfection in being) Now that you all have distracted me from studying for my New Testament exam...time to get back to it. Follow/PM if any questions.
Just because something is written down in script doesn't mean it is real. Oh look! A rock that reads Satan is the most powerful god. That rock could've been made as a joke yet here I am believing it because it was written down by some long dead person. No.
I don't know Robber.. If I ever saw a burning bush talk to me, I'll prob start chiseling stuff I heard..
Augustine is a very credible source. You're basically saying you know better then even historians (from all religions) and theologians that hold Augustine's writtings in very high regards and as a credible source of history, and for theologians an authority on theology.
Not at all. I am however saying that this "compassion" was taken from the Christian moral spectrum and adopted by the Atheists, not abiding by your own theories of a Godless world.
I did not talk of him, I spoke of how you believe whatever is written down, that's like me calling "The Hobbit" my "Bible". On your point of Augustine he influenced western Christianity, not all those "other religions" Lastly. Theologist. Those who deal in theory. I am sorry but I deal in facts. In theory I am a unicorn, just for the records.
Compassion is of human nature. Not of Christianity. The world isn't godless, it is free from those who want to read old books for new knowledge. Our world is one of science and cold hard reality.
You make it sound like we are tin foil wearing zoned out people who believe anything written down. Lol.
I am debating my points. Not everything written down is true (look at those books about how evolution is fake) but you people (assuming your Christian) do believe in the "Bible" which is written down, you don't question the ideas behind it. On the other hand, tinfoil is cool :lol: so many uses, but who said anything about wearing it? You'll be cooked to death :shock:
I do not think he was speaking of your specifically, for I cannot even gleam if from your comments. I believe he is speaking about the other guy on this thread who worships your god or more to those in general who do the same.
First, could have just said christian and not you people. You assume I don't question the ideas behind it. I question the bible a good bit. Lastly, I said you make it sound like that. Like we are insane people who worship some alien god named zenew.
Forgive me but I like to vary the terms used in my debates. That is good. Those who are blind to question are those who are already dead. Not insane, I respect everyone. I am merely debating my view and this insane shredding of arguments is due to my personality. For that I am sorry, I just love a good debate. To me (though others may agree), although your god is widely known, it appears that way. I will believe in your higher being(s) when I am shown concrete proof of its/their existence. I am not talking about pictures, prophecies, scripture. I am talking about asking your god to show himself when I cast a hundred die into the air and ask for fifty snake eyes. Lastly, though I will continue to restate: my opinions are my own, I may trample yours but it is to see retaliation. If you believe in a god I respect you, just don't try to prove that I, as an atheist, are what you classify as a "sinner" or a illogical, non-compassionate, without reason imbecile.