Conservative. Liberal. Why we are what we are.

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Moose2, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. "Occurs frequently in nature?" Please...

    I just read a study the other day in the BBC about this very subject. It turns out its not nearly as common as some would like to believe. And if youre going to use the behavior of other species in nature as the stick against which we compare our own moral compass, then here we also allow pedophelia, which occurs far more often in nature than homosexuality.

    Cute story. Unfortunately it's mostly untrue. In fact, it's barely got any truth in it at all.
     
  2. It's amazing how well some history can be buried in such a relatively short time.
     
  3. The institution of marriage predates religion. Idk if you wanna have a discussion about the theoretical origin of marriage, but to my knowledge, marriage was created to strengthen bonds between competing tribes and help bring peace between them.

    Sorry - where did i say that?

    Believe i answered this above.

    Idk. Ask a conservative.

    Please clarify this question. I dont follow you.
     
  4. False.
     
  5. Buckeye instead of denying the argument they've presented why not counter with an actual argument ?

    You say the "history" has been changed in what way? and by who ?

    Because if your only response is denial it looks like you've actually got no argument to present .
     
  6. Wait for it.
     
  7. Im gonna try and find the articles again that tell the real story behind the removal of homosexuality from the DSM. Ill tell you that its removal wasnt a result of evidence-based scientific studies. Rather it was a political stunt that was pulled off by a small handful of individuals who just happened to hold the right positions at the right time.

    Unfortunately im outta town this weekend and wont be back till late sunday, so if i dont post it soon, ill definitely post it up after i get home.
     
  8. Cheese that comment regarding gays and pedophiles was aimed at buckeyes post not yours
     
  9. As for the stripping of rights part of the defence of marriage act allies states to ignore the marriages of same-sex couples who married in other states.
    It also in conjunction with other acts has barred same sex marriages from receiving federal marriage benefits.
     
  10. I did a very quick google search on why homosexuality was removed from the DMS.

    Here is what I found. Bear in mind, this was a very quick search.

    In 1952, the original Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) listed homosexuality among the sociopathic personality disturbances.
    In 1968, DSM II removed homosexuality from the sociopathic list, categorizing it with other sexual deviations.

    Then in 1973, the DSM III showed the most striking change of all: homosexuality was considered a problem only when it was dissatisfying to the person. When the condition was compatible (“ego-syntonic”)—and the person was comfortable with his homosexual thoughts, feelings and behavior— homosexuality was not considered pathological.
    This is, I believe, a false distinction. The problem lies not in the person’s attitude toward his homosexuality, but in the homosexuality itself. I believe that while homosexuality may be compatible with the conscious ego, it can never be compatible on the deepest levels of self. Homosexuality, as we will show, is symptomatic failure to integrate self-identity. Symptoms will always emerge to indicate its incompatibility with a man’s true nature.
    The DSM III was further revised, and now homosexuality is not referred to at all: no reference is made to it by name within the diagnostic manual.
    Actually, there is an oblique reference in the catch-all category of “Other Sexual Disorders Not Otherwise Specified.” Here they describe “Persistent and Marked Distress About One’s Sexual Orientation.” Reference to homosexual orientation is avoided as if “persistent and marked distress” could also apply to heterosexuality.
    Yet in the history of psychiatry, has a heterosexual ever sought treatment for distress about his heterosexuality and wished to become homosexual? When I put that question in correspondence to the chairman of the DSM Nomenclature Committee, Robert L. Spitzer, he replied: “the answer, as you suspected, is no.” Why does the profession no longer consider homosexuality a problem?
    Political Factors
    In his scholarly analysis of the American Psychiatric Association’s reversal of the diagnostic classification of homosexuality, Ronald Bayer (1981) states: “the result was not a conclusion based upon an approximation of the scientific truth as dictated by reason, but was instead an action demanded by the ideological temper of the times” (p. 3-4).
    The combined effects of the sexual revolution and the “rights” movements—civil rights, minority rights, feminist rights—have resulted in an intimidating effect upon psychology. Some writers have even questioned whether “straights” are capable of doing research on homosexuality (Suppe, 1982). Because there is a fear of offending any vocal minority or of being considered judgmental, there has been little critique of the quality of gay life.

    Although recent behavioral inventories of homosexual men have revealed more anonymous sex than previously imagined, it is like the case of the Emperor’s new clothes: everyone sees the problem, but no one dares acknowledge the obvious.
    The removal of homosexuality from the DSM had the effect of discouraging treatment and research. The bulk of early psychodynamic research and theory beginning with Freud indicated that homosexuality is not a natural, inborn condition. Yet the literature came to an abrupt stop when it became “common knowledge” that homosexuality was in fact not a problem. This discouraged clinicians from communicating with each other, and from making presentations at professional meetings.
    The silence among researchers was not brought about by new scientific evidence showing homosexuality to be a normal and healthy variant of human sexuality; rather it became fashionable not to discuss homosexuality as a problem any longer.
    Other pro-gay researchers fear any inquiry into psychological causes would amount to a concession of pathology; after all, there has been no similar investigation of the causes of heterosexuality (Stein and Cohen, 1986). They have encouraged only the search for a genetic or endocrine basis for homosexuality, in the belief that such a discovery would once and for all resolve the issue of homosexuality’s normality.
    We too consider it possible that there could be some predisposing genetic factors; but in this regard we see a parallel with alcoholism. Although there is now greater recognition of some biological predisposition to alcoholism, we continue to acknowledge it as problematic, we continue to treat it, and we still find the most successful treatments to be psychological, social and spiritual supportive therapy.
     
  11. The article goes in for 6 more pages, but, I recon I'd just give the first two, as to not entirely overwhelm this page with one post
     
  12. If asked, I'll post the rest of the article. It does seek to back up cheeses possition, however.
     
  13. "Recent research has found that gay (I changed the word because it's filtered) behavior in animals may be much more common than previously thought...Currently, gay behavior has been documented in over 450 different animal species worldwide.
    http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/d ... sexuality/

    Gay (word edited) Common in the Wild, Scientists Say
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/05/19 ... tists-say/

    There's plenty more. It's a verified scientific FACT that same gender behavior occurs frequently in nature.

    Cute story. Unfortunately it's mostly untrue. In fact, it's barely got any truth in it at all.[/quote]

    Then PROVE it. Don't post some lame ass rebuttal that consists entirely of "It's not true". You don't refute a statement by simply saying it's "false". You refute it with a counter argument supported by facts.

    You want to portray yourself as a intellectual. Start acting like one.
     
  14. Then PROVE it. Don't post some lame ass rebuttal that consists entirely of "It's not true". You don't refute a statement by simply saying it's "false". You refute it with a counter argument supported by facts.

    You want to portray yourself as a intellectual. Start acting like one.[/quote]

    I don't know if you're failing to remember or just didn't see his post. He said he's out of town and will touch on this at a later time.
     
  15. More articles on the political nature of the removal of that diagnosis from the DSM.

    I'm not well versed in this topic, but, I'm finding a ton of sources that say what happened was not at all scientific, but was very political

    Here is an Excerpt from yahoo answers

    The American Psychiatric Association

    The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, also known as the DSM, is the official list of mental disorders that all mental health professionals refer to when diagnosing patients.

    The first version, released in 1952, listed homosexuality as a sociopath personality disturbance. In 1968, the second version (DSM II) reclassified homosexuality as a sexual deviancy. Soon afterward, gay protestors began picketing at the APA’s annual conventions, demanding that homosexuality be removed from the list completely. In 1973, after intensive debate and numerous disturbances by gay activists, the APA decided to remove homosexuality from it’s next manual (DSM IV) completely.

    What followed was a swarm of outrage from psychiatrists within the APA who disagreed with the decision and demanded that the issue be reconsidered. In 1974, a referendum was called and approximately 40 percent of the APA’s membership voted to put homosexuality back into the DSM IV. Since a majority was not achieved to reverse the decision, homosexuality remains omitted from the APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical manual.

    Many in the scientific community have criticized the APA’s decision to remove homosexuality from the DSM IV, claiming it’s motives were more political than scientific. Dr. Ronald Bayer, author of the book, Homosexuality and American Psychiatry writes:

    The entire process, from the first confrontation organized by gay demonstrators to the referendum demanded by orthodox psychiatrists, seemed to violate the most basic expectations about how questions of science should be resolved. Instead of being engaged in sober discussion of data, psychiatrists were swept up in a political controversy. The result was not a conclusion based on an approximation of the scientific truth as dictated by reason, but was instead an action demanded by the ideological temper of the times.15

    Along these same lines, a recent radio documentary on the subject of homosexuality revealed that the President-elect of the APA in 1973, Dr. John P. Speigel, was a “closeted homosexual with a very particular agenda.”16

    Some have exaggerated or misrepresented these studies in attempt to prove that homosexuality is genetic. Others insist that homosexuality is developed after birth as a response to one’s environment. The truth is that we have no conclusive replicable research to prove either conclusion. However, most researchers have come to the conclusion that sexual orientation is likely determined by a complex interaction between a person’s genetic make-up and their environment.

    Even the American Psychological Association asserts that:

    There are numerous theories about the origins of a person's sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age.17 (emphasis added).

    And the American Psychiatric Association wrote:

    Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.18

    Whatever the case, we know from the personal testimonies of thousands that homosexuality is a changeable condition. Stanton Jones, who is Chair of Psychology at Wheaton College states: “Every secular study of change has shown some success rate...”19
     
  16. Try this one:

    "In 1973, the weight of empirical data, coupled with changing social norms and the development of a politically active gay community in the United States, led the Board of Directors of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Some psychiatrists who fiercely opposed their action subsequently circulated a petition calling for a vote on the issue by the Association's membership. That vote was held in 1974, and the Board's decision was ratified."
    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_s ... ealth.html

    It also refers to the research that created the empirical data, like Ho.oker's study (1957), Ford and Beach (1951) and work done by Alfred C. Kinsey.

    Cheese wants to make it sound like the sole reason they removed it was because of pressure from gays. That's horse manure. Yes, activists put pressure APA. There was all this evidence piling up that the DSM was WRONG. What did you expect them to do? Stay silent? They confronted the board, but they did so with EVIDENCE that the DSM was wrong. So the board removed it. The telling part was that some psychiatrists opposed that action. They got voted down. The majority of psychiatrists supported the decision. Why? Because the EVIDENCE supported it. That's how science works.
     
  17. Dragon:
    I will remain ambiguous on this issue, but, I must take umbrage with your statement on the board voting.

    Good science is borne out via reason, not votes. So, saying "this group took a vote, so the evidence presented MUST BE VALID" is an appeal to authority and not reason
     
  18. This is terrible reasoning, it actually helps the opposing argument.

    “The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association yielded suddenly and completely to political pressure when in 1973 it removed homosexuality as a treatable aberrant condition. A political firestorm had been created by gay activists within psychiatry, with intense opposition to normalizing homosexuality coming from a few outspoken psychiatrists who were demonized and even threatened, rather than scientifically refuted. Psychiatry’s House of Delegates sidestepped the conflict by putting the matter to a vote of the membership, marking for the first time in the history of healthcare that a diagnosis or lack of diagnosis was decided by popular vote than by scientific evidence...”(page 9)

    http://homosexualityandscience.wordpres ... nce-khong/
     
  19. Thanks, moose 

    Black, when you say "occurs frequently in nature," what exactly does that mean? Is homosexuality common on a species population percentage? Or do you mean that homosexual behavior is evident in several species (ignoring the percent of each population's homosexuals)?