Let's get a few thing straight here and let me speak as a European living in Europe 1. These refugees are not coming to Europe because the love or even agree with most European core values like liberal democracy, gender equality, secular states, respect of different sexual orientation and so forth. 2. Their Muslim and Arab 'brothers' are the the primary reason why they are leaving but we do not see any of the very wealthy Gulf states offering to take them in the way Germany has done. Why? Isn't there in the Quran anything about helping fellow Muslims? Most Europeans see helping refugees as something they should do for a variety of historical and political reasons. However, we would feel better about it if it were a more generally shared undertaking.
I am pretty positive that is not what Moose meant. Europe is not the only place to go to. Why are these refugees not asking to go to the UAE, Quatar, Kuwait, Egypt, Dubai, Pakistan once they land in Greece or Italy or Spain? Why if Christendom is so offensive to at least some of them those same people still want to live in the core of it? Isn't this hypocritical? Isn't it hypocritical and duplicitous to dislike core social, political and religious values of a country but still plan to live there as a refugee when there are so many other choices in an interconnected world? Or is it because most Arab and Muslim countries are dictatorships or at least non-democratic countries where human rights are poorly respected and individual choice (including religious choices) is limited? Too easy to blast the 'evil Europeans' for they approach, play the victim but then lean on our values and use them against us. Too easy to reject our core values and use them at the same time to point fingers at us.
Quite happy to repopulate Syria with any Muslim living in Europe who doesn't contribute, doesn't wish to integrate or could be considered slightly radical. Conform, respect OUR culture or leave.
Actually muslims are allowed to eat non-halal food. If an muslim has no other choice except non-halal food he can eat it.
There seems to be 2 groups of people on this thread. The majority are saying "I offered you help, and you turned it down, so good luck". The other group on this thread is if the mindset that "if we just show these people enough kindness, and if we placate them hard enough, they will come around and act like civilized people" I'm willing to go out on a limb here and guess that most of the people in group 2 are under the age of 25. There is an optimism in youth that hasn't yet yielded to experience and reality, and that's ok. Part of being young is being naive. Now that I have gotten that out of the way, I'll speak to people in general. The majority of people on this globe are civilized and law abiding people, and that's lovely, BUT, there are groups and individuals that are permanently uncivilized. (Stop. I'm not calling Muslims as a group uncivilized) here in Canada, we try to put the worst uncivilized offenders in jail. But, speaking to a larger point, a group of intolerant militants is being driven out of their country by a civil war between other very intolerant militants. If your kindness is thrown back in your face when you try to help intolerant militant people, the thought that just showering them with more and make gifts will make them friendly is really an oversimplification. Bottom line, we all need to get along in this globe, and that means learning to respect and adapt to the cultures of the people who are trying to help you. Did Red Cross show the refugees respect? Yes! They are trying to feed a group of hungry people who are fleeing a war. Did the people who were assisting receive any gratitude? No. And, gratitude aside, that type of behavior is detrimental to a healthy functioning society, so it's NO WONDER many people in Europe are upset. Who wants a group of militant dangerous and intolerant people moving into their neighborhood?
Are they hiding ak47's in their bedrolls moose? C'mon man. Obviously showering them with gifts isn't going to win them over, you have to lead by example (as any GOOD leader should do) and show them how much better off they would be if they were more tolerant etc. Telling a group of stressed frustrated and possibly religiously fanatical people to do one after offering food once is ridiculously close minded. Go find a victim of long term sexual / emotional abuse from childhood and see if you can get them to trust you. Even though all you're doing is helping them, and after all they're going to have to live in society with other people too. Edit: FYI I'm over 25, and I've probably seen more in the last 5 years than most.
Some of those guys were running people out of UN refugee camps. People who needed help got chased away. So if that the leadership, something needs to change. It's nice to see EU attempting to make a effort in combating smugglers/profiteers. It seems like some common sense is being displayed. Hopefully it's not just for show.
Not responding to this point as its sarcastic and trollish. They were leading by example. You're tired and hungry. Enjoy a meal from tje good people of tje Red Cross. Welcome to Europe! Calling the Europeans who are trying to help the militant religious people CLOSE MINDED is offensive and obnoxious. Clearly the close minded people are the ones returning the food because they don't like the boxes. Don't you seriously not see that? Open minded people are leading by example and the close minded people are causing the trouble, and you find fault with the people trying to help. If those people ASK for help, then throw that help in the counsellors face, the counselor will refuse treatment. Your no any help people that won't allow you to help them. No offense, but every kid says that.
Yes, first point was extremely sarcastic, however where's your proof that all these people a militants? Yes that's True they do. However I'm not a kid. I wasn't calling the people trying to help close minded, I'm calling the majority of people on here close minded. The Red Cross do a fantastic job. I've never said anything against them and I probably never will do. The vast majority of overseas charities do a brilliant job. It's idiots on here that don't see the bigger picture and are just like 'well they should just die instead then' without taking into account their situation or even trying to put yourself in their shoes.
My example was for circumstantial purposes only. Believe me, from personal experience I wish that on no one. They don't have therapists btw moose.
I meant, if you go search for someone and try to offer help then of course they may respond in a hostile manner. But if they come to you for help and you attempt to provide, a response of hostility is a big red flag of what may be to come later down the road.
Aaaaaahhhh........ That was the nugget I was waiting for. You think you can put your self in these people's shoes. It's a common mistake. Lots of people actually think they can understand what someone else is going through by pretending in their minds eye that "I am now you! How do I feel?". It's like cheesy role playing with only one person. Here is the thing, you can't do it. It's not possible. Here is an UNRELATED example. I am a middle aged white Canadian who runs a private business and lives comfortably in the suburb. I drive a Mercedes and go to chrurch roughly twice a month. I have many friends of differing beliefs and colors and I enjoy hanging out with all of them. I guess to the symphony once a month, and I came from a stable family too, so I am really boring. I now want to try to understand the mind of an African American inner city gang member. Why does he do drugs? Why is he violent? This person had no father and his mom was abusive. He also hates classical Vivaldi (classical composer) If I mentally try to put my self in his shoes, I will fail because I will be a white Canadian middle class father pretending to be something I have no experience with. I'd react to every scenario as my self. It's arrogant to say "you're close minded because you won't walk in someone else's shoes mentally for a while". Your reactions will always be shaped and drawn from your experiences. And your experiences are unique. As good people, all we can do is try to help when the help is asked if us, and if our help is then thrown in our face, fine. We have done our part. Now, back to these refugees, if they want to die of starvation for their God, I absolutely don't stop them from doing so. If they would rather die then integrate, then yes, they can die (by their own hand , of course) In society, integration is not only important. It's essential. Again, I am not saying I would kill anyone, but, if a drowning man not only refuses to get into my motor boat, but also screams to me that dying for the one armed spaghetti monster is better than riding in a boat with a cross on the bow, i will let him live his convictions to the fullest. He can sink to the bottom.
OK, my last post on this thread, which might have been posted not as innocently as it seems... Did any of you even take the time to have a look at the source of that video? Anyone even bothered to check who is diffusing this video with a misleading (and I´m very generous by using this word) title? You basically fell into a propaganda trap of the extremist right wing, congratulations! Here some food for thought for those intelligent enough to have an own opinion: http://www.liberation.fr/monde/2015...ect-food-aid-because-it-was-not-halal_1377253 http://www.ilpost.it/2015/08/25/debunking-migrants-video-red-cross-macedonia/ Oops... Moose, I honestly wish I could be 25 again... I am however slightly disappointed by your agressive provocative tone towards anyone not of your opinion, I thought you were much more open minded.
being "open minded" isn't about putting up points for debate and challenging other people to come up with thoughtful posts. Being "open minded" means agreeing with some guy who's opinion differs from yours, because that's what open minded people do, I guess........ Btw, I'm a far cry from aggressive when I engage my fellow forummers in threads like this. The aggressive posters are the ones who call others idiots or morons. The aggressive ones tend to three around grade school like taunts that do nothing to forward the conversation in any meaningful way. Calling a person "young" or "naive" or even "arrogant" is a far cry different from making derogatory remarks about IQ, gender, or being a grammar unicorn. But, I digress..
Moose is Canadian. It's against his code of honor to be aggressive. How dare you accuse him of such violence.
The red cross does look similar to the Cross the Christians who attacked and burnt their villages to the ground I guess. I'm assuming they have no access to information for the last 130 years that the red cross has been around. One I don't think Europe should allow a civil war to spill into europe. Middle east have been hacking each other to death for 4,000 years and should be contained. Maybe Mexico will pay for a fence. Being middle-eastern Muslims from what we've seen in Canada is they arrive with well taught hate for ppl who use a different book to talk to the same fella. I do know they settle in and become as productive and happy as any of us given time. Oddly enough the red cross also has a red crescent so maybe just some Muslim scholars can solve this with some calming explanation and some Red Crescent labels