Incorrect Stat increases on ADT and SDT on new lands

Discussion in 'Questions/Feedback' started by Adonis-ICE_MaCHiNE, Dec 28, 2016.

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  1. I am heading out for the day soon but I want to keep the conversation going so I'll ask a few questions! (I won't be around to respond until tomorrow)

    Towers are made to protect your stuff, you trade building something with troops to get 'em, a fully loaded attack building with all troops gives you 1,355,169,338 Attack while a defence tower gives 1,904,583,631 or about 40% more. The earlier ten levels on this land also have about this % difference, same with Abyssal. Why do you feel this power comparison no longer holds?
     
  2. Great question Charlie my friend. Thinking about it however I think the answer is obvious. No build at all in KaW apart from a turtle build which I don't believe there are any left for obvious reasons (you make the least amount of plunder possible w a turtle build) will ever ever put up the same number of towers as you do attack or spy buildings. In fact you won't ever put anywhere near the equivalent. So while you gain a 40% stat advantage over an att building that's only vs 1 attack building. The reality is that someone may choose to put up 3 or 4 or if they going heavy with their towers maybe even 5 towers but there are 25 lands you could build something on in each tier of lands so a bc spy or hansel could have, and do have 25 spy buildings on the latest lands where a hybrid or attack build would choose to only put 3,4 or 5 towers in order to reduce or limit the plunder loss they would experience. Let's take 5 spy defence towers on the latest lands as the high end for an example. That would mean the strength of 25 spy buildings vs 5 spy defence towers. Even with a 40% advantage there is no successful defence against that kind of fire power. It wouldn't matter if the account with towers also had spy buildings and therefore spy troops because in a strip you would be zeroed quickly enough and again then rely on 5 towers to defend against 25 spy buildings. Sorry to go on but thinking about it in fact the scenario is worse because if you take all the lands into account it doesn't make sense anymore for accounts to have towers on lowlands, highlands or hoarfrost lands as they actually reduce your plunder with each tower whereas towers on the Abyss and Osmon Rai lands don't. As a result most BC or near BC accounts will have their towers on these last two sets of lands. But they won't put up too many as we all know the best building plunder is found on the latest lands. So in fact in many cases you could have over 100 att or spy building strength vs 5 or so towers. So you see Charlie a 40% advantage really makes very little difference unless you are prepared to sacrifice a tonne of plunder buildings in order to put up enough towers to properly defend attacks or steals. Next question please ;) lol
     
  3. It's nice to see some player to dev communication here and I hope it can continue.

    I have to agree that towers are meant to protect your stuff but in the game you've set it up so towers infact hurt more then they help due to the fact that the only way to grow big is to have few to none towers. If someone does put a lot oftowers up then they will not grow which leads to big players being able to plunder them anyway.
     
  4. I don't want to say that revisiting the ADT/SDT stats is a bad or a good thing to do. I just want to give this conversation another perspective.
    I understand that the stats increases on the new towers aren't as high and consistent as they were on the previous lands. But that also applies for EVERY new building, spy building and every troop building there is. The cost per stat is pretty high, that's true, but -again- you can say that about every new building. It's just designed that way to drain some of the extreme amounts of gold that are in the game.
    And are the stats really that low? Do they realy need to be "considerably higher"? If you decide to build 20 of those new SDT, you will end up with almost 770m static spy defense. You can easily prevent a BC hansel from performing any succesful spy action on you. I know you have to sacrifice 20 lands on which you could've build some plunder generating buildings but is it really a sacrifice tho? Versus a hansel you basically have 20 vs 124 buildings (and those 20 are static, whereas the other 124 are not).
    So the question I want to bring up: Are towers really that bad/unfair?
    I don't think so tbh. The fact that you only need 20 buildings to stop ANY action from a full BC account is actually quite...impressive.
    Give me your thoughts!

    edit: typo
     
  5. Hey Shadow thanks for your post. In answer to yr points it's not that I think towers are bad and while I take your point you could choose to put up 20 towers on the Osmon lands, who would do that? Realistically to successfully defend again bc spies you would have to place those towers on the Osmon lands any other land and their stats simply aren't high enough vs spy or att buildings on Osmon lands. So with 20 towers you would be sacrificing twofold. Firstly on your plunder obviously. Ask anyone who has had a turtle build in the past the plunder is diabolical. So awful compared to any other build and monumentally low compared to hansels who everyone agrees already earn way more than other builds. Secondly your remaining overall stats would be so low compared to other builds in your bracket making you pretty ineffective in War. That's why I think if you could throw up towers that had big big stats it would make war and strategy in osw so much more interesting. There would be more varied builds and I really feel that would only benefit KaW
     
  6. Yes lol, with 20 SDT on OR you would get no spy inc, but your max stats would be like 125/125/25/775
    How useful is that build? Nevermind the abysmal plunder you would get.
     
  7. I understand your point, icey. I really do. That's why I changed my build from a hitter with more towers to hansel with a lot less towers.
    What would be a good stats increase in your opinion? Maybe I'm just a little exaggerating but I feel like towers might be overpowered if they get a rewamp.
    Every building has downsides, just like they should. Tower don't generate plunder and only increase one of the four cs (def/spydef) but they give a nice amount of static stats. A spy build on the other hand will make good amount of plunder but they can't hope to attack any other building and they're one of the easiest build to strip. Same goes for atk builds just vice versa.
    I fear that a stats increase for SDT will make it very hard to perform a spy action even for bc hansels (and ADT for atk builds).

    I know it's kind of off topic and this has been said wayyy too often but the real issue here is still that the whole game is too focused on making gold. With all the events and "temporary promo" EBs; PvP, osw and ee wars (and the lack of improvements/updates for these parts of the game) are just dying. I really feel like if the devs would put more focus on that, this tower issue we're discussing here would'nt even be much of a problem.
     
  8. I wasn't talking about the usefulness of that build  I know what you mean. And I know that no one would really consider having this build.
    I was just trying to say that it's possible. Nothing more.
    About the plunder you mentioned... Yes, you would get very little plunder compared to other buildings. And that's the problem I have here. You COMPARE the plunder. But I think you can't do that because those are two totally different buildings. Again - you know that every building has cons, and by building so many towers you would know that you'd not make as much as others.
     
  9. As I said, I don't know what kind of buff you're suggesting, icey.
    In response to charlie's latest statement you complained that 5 SDT can't fully hold against 25 spy buildings. Wouldn't it be unfair if they could? A "pure" hansel (no towers) dedicates his whole 25 lands set to get the highest possible spy attack. You're suggesting that he shouldn't be able to get through 5 SDT (the hansel would probably already start to fail being below 40%)? That's why I am concerned about what kind of stat increase we're talking about here.

    On a side note, is having 5 SDT really considered good nowadays? That kinda brings me to my plunder focused gameplay post from earlier.
     
  10. Hey Shadow. Awesome posts bro. Now that is the big question how big a stat increase would work (satisfy me ;) ) well Charlie mentioned a current 40% differentiation and I don't think that's big enough. I'd have to see the stats to be honest and then work out what that would mean in terms of rest of build. Sorry a cop out I know but don't wanna give Charlie all the answers he's gotta work on this too lol. On your point about spy builds and their attack strength I'll say this. I'm sure you agree that spy builds are not meant to attack anyone really. It's not their purpose and ofcourse attack builds and hybrids therefore can plunder them but with the massive stats you can procure in today's KaW a BC or near BC spy build can steal plunder pretty much any account. And ofcourse we go back to the insane levels of gold these builds can make. You only need to look at the top 200 accounts in KaW to see just how many are now spy or hansels. If you compare that level of those types of builds with each new land release I guarantee you'll never have seen as many as you do in today's KaW. As far as winning actions is concerned the fact you'd get a lot more fails would be so much more fun imo. And if you wanted to test that theory just try attacking Blazey (sorry honey) that is one tough warrior ;) and she admits she's sacrificed spy attack in order to make attack builds pretty frustrated when they try attacking her account....trust me I know all about that. That's why I say we would see greater variation in builds, more strategy on strips or war because what's always worked before just wouldn't work anymore. How many forum posts have we seen with peeps complaining about spy heavy war rosters? So many and these changes would shake all that up I think. Finally you are right 5 sdt in today's KaW is really not enough at all basically only barely enough to slow things down enough to let you get a phone call ;) seriously though to properly defend against the 25 spy buildings example I think you'd need 7-10 towers with new stats not currently. Currently 10 or more may work but you'd be sacrificing so much in terms of both plunder and troops no one is prepared to do it and therein lies the problem as the remaining default position is not a good enough deterrent to steals or attacks. Apols for the long post but you can probably tell I feel pretty passionate about this
     
  11. Does there even need to be a stat increase? Stats vs gold spent clearly needs to increase accordingly in relative increments rather than the obscure levels that op has pointed out other than that couldn't the effectiveness of towers be addressed / tweaked from the back end?

    If to counter we have to match each attack/spy building with a tower then there is problems.

    While we are kind of in the subject (and I have asked feedback this before!) why does a hansel with 1 attack building earn similar gold per eb attack hit as someone with many attack buildings?

    Surely the pay should be in relation to how many building and what levels they are also?

    I wouldn't obviously mind so much if my 1 spy building could generate the same level of gold as their one attack !
     
  12. That was a good read, thanks for the response, icey.
    First off I want to mention that I'm 100% with you on your original post talking about that you should get more stats for paying more each level. I never mentioned that I believe.

    Now the only problem I have is the balance we actually want to achieve here. It still doesn't feel right for me that after the tower buff 10 or less SDT should be enough to pretty much stop a bc hansel. I always have to think about the ratio 10:124 here. Will this really be balanced then?
    Yes, a hansel can pretty much steal anyone once he's full (except the other one has a big amount of sdt) so hansels are the most important accounts to strip someone (duh..). But don't forget, on the other hand hansel are the third easiest builds to strip though (first being a ps, second a full atk build).
    I know I'm repeating myself here but I always want to point out that hansels aren't the holy, untouchable builds people tend to see. There are always cons.

    Reading your post I get the feeling, please correct me if I'm wrong, that the problem isn't totally with the towers, it's more about hansels in general.
    To be fair I know a lot of people questioning the recent popularity of hansels. The two biggest reasons here being the better event drop rate and the better plunder. I'm quite sure that the event drops are indeed better for hansels than attack builds. About the plunder... It's a common opinion that hansels make way more plunder than hitter. Tbh I've never checked for myself but I think some people have and came to the conclusion that this is in fact true. So at this point I want to ask Charlie if he can look into this and elaborate.
     
  13. Thx Shadow so just a short reply ahead of hearing more from Charlie hopefully. I've tested it and on a train like for like spells and bonuses unloads total troops total spies x6 xstals a bc hansel can make as much as 5t - 7t more per hte or zta eb (in some cases even more) than say my hybrid build. That's way too much more just do the maths over 24 xstals. Anyway we are getting a little off track. I only referenced hansels and their popularity to point out that a) their growth in popularity is proof of their strength and b) that they are now the most popular build by far meaning far less diverse builds which I don't think is a good thing for KaW long term. But loving all the comments and chat guys keep em coming and hopefully we can hear more from Charlie soon
     
  14. Ok, thats quite a number.. As you said, let's hope charlie can give us an explanation there.

    And thanks again for your reply, especially point b). Now I understand what you were really trying to say. Good talks bud
     
  15. Fully support this. Well done adonis for raising the issue 
     
  16. May be off key here but finding the sweet spot between defence and att stats either spy or att build seems like one of those issues that is never going to really be solved to the satisfaction of any build. Why can't we

    Give aft/sdt a plunder score so no drop in plunder when building them, this offsets disadvantage. Obviously the increases per level need to be fixed but if towers didn't reduce plunder then it seems like that would fix any notion of imbalance.
     
  17. Loving the debate. I love that people are willing to debate either side to make a better more detailed discussion!

    Okay I think we have brought up a few other cool bits in this discussion:

    1. End game builds don't have much variety (there is a perceived dominant strategy)
    2. The perceived dominant strategy is Hansel build.
    3. Towers are making a trade in plunder for defence but perhaps the trade off could be re-evaluated.

    I think there's a lot of big concepts here, and I think they're very important. Important in the long-term for KAW and also important to bring competition into build choices.

    But this I don't agree with.
    At least if the sentiment is that I should do this on my own, because I think we should try and work together! Because at some point new things have to come out, people will get to the end of the game, but I want to find space for us to bring things to a state everyone is excited about!

    I don't fully know what that looks like but I have some ideas about it.

    But I think ADT/SDT are not a big enough tool for it. And I would like to fix them from their current state so as the conversation evolves I may move forward with the proposed fix to their current values. But I still want to keep talking about everything here. I think there is a lot to it.
     
  18. Hey Charlie couldn't agree more. Sorry I didn't mean you should fix this and we sit back and wait. You are right there are lots of strong opinions out there. I was more suggesting that we'd be happy to hear a recommendation from you based on our debate/comments. I'm happy to make a suggestion. So you mention the adt/sdt stats advantage on last two sets of lands is about 40% I think it needs to be north of 60%, or even 70% in order for us to see more varied builds. And yes we should discuss the long term future of KaW here. If we are to make some "biggish" changes that needs thinking about. Would making towers give plunder help the situation? It's an interesting idea. I need to think more on that
     
  19. A major issue with making towers give plunder is that the no variance of builds would likely switch from spy builds to tower builds.

    I could see making them cost less. Spies give more plunder, thus they cost more. Towers give no plunder, so they should cost less. Not astronomically less, but even 5-10% would give them a certain appeal.
     
  20. I think we honestly should have a forum post where devs can discuss the game with players. It's impossible for a company to create a great product if they don't know what the customer wants.

    As far as tower's I love to see a cs increase which would in a way cheapen them. I don't see plunder working out but who knows.
     
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