We read both of your posts. First of all, thank you for taking the time to breakdown the issues you feel needs to be addressed and posting it on the forum. Your first point about Estoc's Edge is well taken. Rest assured that the answers to your questions will be addressed once we release the final design. The rest of your post concerns the mechanics of the war and how we can changing them. I just want to point out that there are 2 ways we can approach this problem. Going with your analogy, yes, we can simply take the car into the garage and do an oil change. What we are doing here is taking a bit more of a risk and seeing if we can make even bigger improvements, swapping out the engine if you will. We realize that this may alienate some players as they are happy and comfortable with the old system, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a different system could not be better. It is true that we may not be successful, or the first iteration may be full of exploits. That is why we are seeking community feedback (like yours, thank you!) and also running a series of trial wars. Hopefully this gives you a better idea of what we are trying to do and why we are doing it.
Gamehendge, I disagree with your premise that clan loyalty is an issue here. Many a time, have both sides in a war merced up, and its not just the one side. Should Clan B in your example merc up from their family clans, then Clan A in this case would, in most cases that ive seen anyway, either have prior knowledge that said clan is part of a family of clans with much stronger members and try to stop this mercing before it happens with their predetermined rules of war, or merc up themselves with friends and friends' friends, and so on and so on. After the mithril update, roughly 90% of system wars were killed, and by simply looking at the clan events tab you could see that many of ones that remained were mere mwars. Not true system wars. What most people complain about now, is the fact that the opponents' strategies are making them lose. They complain its no fun because they cant touch the other side, although the other side complains of the same thing. There is always an alternative to the other side if theyre pinning themselves like a good side does. After all, why come out of pin when you know youre going to get hammered into the ground, and cost your side dearly, when you can simply pick off players that are either not being pinned properly or slacking? It would surely make more sense to do that, and with the proposed changes in the OP, this whole system will go. Hypocrisy is rife in this area, people complain about something yet their own side is doing the exact same thing to try and get/stay ahead of the opponents. Players have been coming up with suggestions to fix this ever since the mithril update, incentive to war is needed. Yes, granted that some do war, on occasion. Most wars in the current age, seem to be more OSW, very few and rare SW. Whats the difference here? There is no tax for OSW, and who doesnt love making others lose billions in one go. Tax in system war is far too high to be of profitable usage. It needs to be lowered for such a measly reward, particularly when nowadays most people have hundreds of mith saved up from the various sales that have been out since the update all those months ago. Mithril is no longer a rarity as it was initially, but rather a common thing like gold. Thrown around everywhere. As for outside interference, this too requires coordination and strategy to pull off completely. Everyone needs some sleep, even if its just for 10 mins. After all, we are only human, not gods. Outside interference aids with keeping sleeping players pinned, as it was meant for. The Summer wars took this out of play with the no outside hits or hitting outside mechanism to it, and you could easily see its effect. From the beginning of the tournament, clans were racking up high totals in plunder. Staying up all night, maxing out what they could do to get that double mithril and do as much as they could to get the win. Come the final, and semi's, it was all one giant pinfest, even without outside interference. Outside interference isnt as big an issue as it is made out to be, in my opinion. Testing out the new war system will certainly highlight different bugs, and bring out new strategies as people find the different loopholes that are created from the system, no doubt, although from what I can tell, this new system will certainly reduce the effectiveness, if not completely take away, of old strategies that were used to inch forward and get the win. No one likes losing. All in all, i dont see much gain from this new system, but then again, I only see what I do. Im sure others can point out the many advantages of the new system. This is all just an opinion.
There are going to be pros and cons with the changes we are making, and you bring up some of the points that we are trying to address. It is true that we may loss some other strategies and concepts that we have had in the past. We are hoping that in the end it is a net gain for most players involved.
Ah but devs you forgot something. If you change the oil, the engine will last for a few more years before you actually need to replace it. But if you replace it now, then in a few years you will need to change the oil, or buy a new engine yet again. Now, I don't know about you, but I would rather fix my old reliable engine with a simple oil change rather than buy a brand new V8 worth millions, and be in the exact same scenario a few years from now.
@ iphrophet. Shame an informed argument starts so negative. However Estocs edges the devs have already said earlier they "may" well move this to players that participate in wars to reward them this is an ideal solution This also removes all potential harm caused to the clans by the potential of the clan losing a bonus. Do the war "you"get the reward. = good to me anyway. So that helps resolve clan roster size and mercs joining wars. The more the merrier. Were summer wars really so bad because outside hits were blocked?? This is clan warfare not alliance warfare. If the devs line up matches appropriately where is the fear in going 1v1 clan wise without outside help from a bigger alliance. Why is so much of the complaint against change about not being able to have a stand up war game. Not bigger players / alliances hiding behind numbers and strength. You state yourself you cannot do it yourself pinning an opponent completely without opening yourself up, that is the devs point. War game. Not outside help, Sitting on an opponent keeping them pinned the whole 12 hours is in honesty as boring as it gets. Both for the one pinning and the player being pinned must find it frustrating and a total waste of time.This is a game. 12 hours not being able to do anything puts lots off for some crazy reason. Tactics strategies? How on earth is killing your own troops ever a tactic?? Do we in war intentionally kill our allies. Sleep. Unexpected emergency. A 1 time 1 hour sleep button if essential to some but 12 hours is not that impossible. Yes life gets in the way and I'd love 6 hour wars as options. But either way if you can't war for the time designated don't. Some ideas need to be refined. But at least ATA are trying to turn this back into a fun active war game. Rather than turtle war. How a clan joins the war is vital. But I have seen nothing to say the join war button is no longer there. ATA could you clarify that one? Is it auto join or we still have the join button?? Who says most clans don't understand sit and pin its obvious to anyone. As you say there are some very intelligent players here. Yes some will hate the changes. Some will love it. Balanced clans find it harder to do one on one but then that's good it makes for a more open game. And these changes SHOULD draw more into warring. These changes apply to the estoc war options. The devs haven't actually said they will apply to every system war. Just the ones they run. So all war types should be available. And self pinning is still easy. Getting pinned by clan mates or alliance you can't. Ok fine so I'll guess I'll just sign up for wars where I can be active then. At the moment clans already boot members for non perm larger stat members to do the wars ie summer wars rosters changed a lot so it was never a pure perm member test no war ever will be the clan idea for estoc was a good thought to encourage clan loyalty but wouldn't work. succesfull war clans will draw more recruits as players will want to maintain their bonus on them selves The way for these system wars (only the estoc wars) it's random line ups. Hopefully matched well by devs and should lead to more involvement. And closer wars with lots of action. Another option on a war game is good news Plunder in war?, why worry if I'll hopefully earn more the next week building back up with my bonus on me. Them main reason players won't war is real world commitments,boredom, fear of losing their growth. More opportunities to war on various days. Preferably differing length options with bonus for warring that overcome the risk. Hope fully it's worth the effort and reward. As the system wars go you never have a fair or even match up. Clans spend hours agreeing roster line ups and terms, loads of bs arranging and at the start it all goes to hell and you find yourself against the alliance and everyone and more you expected. In which case why not just say shove it lets split kaw down the middle and have a huge world kaw war. Personally I don't consider using alliances as anything other than cheating. Yes it takes planning co-ordination and some limited skill ( tapping a few buttons from outside a war ) And it totally destroys the opportunities for noobs to war as they don't have the back up in place. Whether wars are for noobs or experienced players clans should go in as close to even in tiers as possible. Wars should be a close and exciting fun aspect of the game. Not hours pinning yourself rather than fighting opponents. It's just bigs on smalls let's sit on them we play you don't. Boring. And yes I'm glad the devs admit this game has flaws and give us a chance to ALL play the game with VARYING OPTIONS and contribute to the future of the game.
You can keep changing the oil, but it's not like that engine is going to magically gain 100hp from it. To do that you'll need a new engine We've said this before, this is a calculated risk and that's why we iterating it with everyone's feedback in mind. We understand that changes are scary, and there will be issues, please bear with us as we try to make the war system better.
Devs Estoc's Edge seems to be a major stick point here. Most seem to agree 1 week is too short, and you don’t want to let it be abused and have it for long periods of time. So set the time 3 full weeks and you have to be in the 4th weeks war otherwise the bonus is lost. And it auto resets last day every 3 months or say March 31st June 30th, September 30th, and December 31st ! This makes it so a clan could reach max bonus in 5 weeks and hold it for 7 weeks having to fight in no less than 7 wars to keep MAX the entire 3 months.. That’s more than half the wars offered in the time frame… And not so war people can still get buy with only 4 wars... OK up there it seems complicated but really isn’t… Option 1 S|M|T|W|T|F|S |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 1 |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 2 |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 3 |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 4 |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 5 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < war to keep lvl 5 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < war to keep lvl 5 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| Week 13 |W|_|_|_|_|_|_|< lvl 1 cause everyone reset Option 2 S|M|T|W|T|F|S |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 1 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 2 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 3 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |W|_|_|_|_|_|_| < lvl 4 |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| |_|_|_|_|_|_|_| Week 13 |W|_|_|_|_|_|_|< lvl 1 cause everyone reset Index: W=War day and i just picked sundays to make it look nice... :? I also use the assumtion the clan warring always wins... Of course everything in between as well! :lol: Those just show the premise of what I am talking about they are infact the same “settings” just 2 ways to “manipulate” it… Also in Option 2 you could have the clan stay at lvl 1 the entire time and make it required b2b wars to go up levels... (just a thought) Warnings in clan info could alert to you bonus time running out and current level when you offer up the wars if it’s like summer wars signup. (to keep confusion down) :shock: And that just my idea Hate on if you like but i think it works... :mrgreen: :geek: ~I'll address peeps leaving calns in a later post~
Devs Estoc's Edge Clan Change So I’ve seen many posts on people not liking the fact of clan growth and shrinkage. You’ve made and adjustment already to 30% change, which is better but still doesn’t do clans any good. I’ve posted my suggestion earlier in the thread, and think it’s something to consider (I’ll repost below) But don’t do as some suggest and make it a per person bonus that is lost if you leave the clan!!! :shock: Yes this would make people stay a lot longer in a single clan but if a friend needs help and I want to go help in a EB or even join them for a war, I DO NOT want to leave and not have my bonus I helped work for when I come back! Could you imagine if you’d worked up to lvl5 bonus and leave and get back to nothing… :!: I don’t think people thought the suggestion entirely though, and if they did I personally think it’s a bad idea. I think you promote this as being a social type game as well as war game, and even with the current 30% change you plan to implement I think you lose more of the social aspect then you gain by bringing back wars! I have a home clan! But i have many i visit and have friends in as well! My thinking is that every KAW users has a Primary Key associated with the account so it would be ease enough to setup a “core member system” Kind of like that has been suggested by a few other users. Whomever is in the war that is added to the that clans “core member list” (CML) you must maintain 40% of that (or more this is my suggestion) to keep the bonus, core members leaving and returning PK’s would be the same even if someone changed names so they count toward the 40% total. Other member can come and go as they please; clans can grow or shrink without major issues. Guests or noncore members don’t need to get the entire bonus either maybe 75% or 50% of those that fought in the war. Fighting in someone else’s war removes you from the first clans CML and counts against them. This prevents a ton of Merc’s just to help other clans get the bonus. Best par is all of this can be done in the background without the users ever having to do a thing!! (this is all backend programming changes that can be run almost seamless to the end user) You just keep a running tally of Number of core members sitting in the clan and display how many left until bonus is lost! They can be marked with a Star or something in upper right corner of banners, you can see if you a core member of the clan you’re in and owners or/and admins can but others can’t. And isn’t it the clans admin/owners choice if they want to let a bunch of leeches come in and enjoy the bonus they worked so hard for?? (DO i smell big Government, Come MOOSE where is the backup) hahaha jkjkj The wars I’ve fought in I go and visit my opponents CC to bs with them a bit and congrats them on a hard fought battle! This would count toward the change I’m sure! But if you’re looking to isolate the KAW community I guess you’ll successfully accomplish that with your current plan! And in the case of summer wars we consolidated members to create a better clan so we can continue on! Again this is my best idea I’ve come up with for the issue hate on it if you will but I’m just making my suggestions and hoping the Indivual bonus assignment doesn’t get looked at! TY and sorry for any nonsense or rambling! :geek:
FULL SUPPORT TO iProphet. I personally love all of his ideas. I agree with the fact that the new war system cuts out alot of the strategy. I also like the Estoc's edge bonus, I just think it should last a bit longer, and explained a bit better. I also 100% agree with the fact that the main problem is wars is that there simply isn't enough reward. There needs to be money given back to us. It just costs too much to burn all those pots and the full mithril. There just isn't a reward. People war because it's fun. Not because there is any profit. If there was a bigger reward, more people would war.
erm what does this mean Based on your feedback, we’ve moved the 50% threshold to 25%. what threshold coz it not eb
UPDATES : THOUGHTS 1) auto join : maybe you could enforce the auto join to start halfway into a war, thus giving players a chance to join strategically whilst ensuring all take part. 2) the castable spell to make you "safe" (presuming you cannot be attacked nor attack) great idea , I would suggest it be only useable ONCE in any 24 hour period (or war) and last perhaps 1/6th of the duration of war. This will give the player chance to sleep, see family etc whilst still keeping the excitement/danger ( 3 hours safe in a 12 hour war say) and could be cast at the start (if you keep autojoin from the start) enabling those players starting a war at say 11pm (like the Asians in the tournament who had terrible start times) to render themselves safe and sleep before they join. It would help balance out bad start times if you could do this... But keep it exciting. Strategic use would be fun to implement... 3) dump the Unholy Aura spell, useless outside of osw, maybe you could jack up the price, reduce the length and limit use and actually give the caster the extra plunder the defender loses.... . 4) new pin mechanics- I would have to experience these to give really truthful thoughts on them, same for the edge bonus . But maybe the edge bonus could include an increase in Enchantment success also , god knows I need it for those bloody greaves haha. Keep it up, love the game as always.
Ps apologies for the obvious error above (1/6th of the duration not equating to 3 hours in a 12 hour war , duh duh duh lol) but you get my drift
I propose that clan will not lose their estoc edge even if they change member. Plunder bonus are already an advantage and a good reason for them to stay in their clan.
And even a merc come and fight for us, let them do that. Make a personal achievement, if you win 5 war personally you will get 2% plunder bonus permanent, 10 war get 4% plunder bonus, 15 war get 6%, 20 war get 8% and so on
@KaW_Admin I emailed ATA in regards to this and was told to post here. I did in the beginning of this thread but feel that it was over-looked. I believe that allowing epic battle potions that are rewarded for completing them should also be rewarded for attacking another kingdom. I believe that this will also HELP start getting people to hit off of battle list and it will make wars a little less scarce. I just feel its another incentive to help stabilize the mechanics of how this game was meant to be played.
Lmao penguin. Full support for all of them and you lice them all. Alt? Exactly what strategy does this change to war mechanics lose? If you seriously think that turtling is a tactic you need your head read. Sitting there for the duration of a war and pinning on quests or having a clanmate pin you so you can't be hit is the equivalent of curling up in a ball on the floor whilst the school bully kicks you repeatedly. What is the worry here? That you can't use the simple "tactic" of "you can't hit me nanananana!" or that you might actually have to work together, stay on top of opponents and win as a team? Being able to claim "I didn't leak" at the end of a war hardly makes you a master tactician. Almost every complaint about this proposed update can be read as people scared that things might be a bit harder. War is a choice. You can EB all day every day if you want. Nobody forces any clan into war (system at least). For all the requests for "toggle options" to tailor your war; there is a toggle available: War Don't War Next... If you still feel the desire to war turtle, there will be no problem with achieving this, especially if against me. I will be trying to keep troops as high as possible so you will always have someone you can burn all your troops on and pin yourself. Last... If you want to sleep in a war then sleep. Everyone is in the same position. People are going to leak. Rant done... For now