Socialism vs Capitalism

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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby suptis2 on Dec 19 2018, 2:24pm

Weimar republic (Social democratic republic of Germany)
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby Majin_Venom on Dec 19 2018, 4:05pm

Gotta break the news here..

But a democratic government is all we need,
Capitalism is a must, for a free market...

Socialism doesn’t work due to humans being greedy and living life with many Xtals and gold sad but True, human nature is not forever and one day our species will bite the dust, probably some man-bear pig race or Kardhasian will survive. Cheers
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby -STrEeT-HeARt_TrlGgErED_U- on Dec 19 2018, 7:19pm

Capitalism aka a free enterprise market, meaning that each and every human being has the fair right to equally pursue happiness. From the lowest class to the highest, anyone can start a business or investment and not have their life dictated to them by the government on how they should live. The only reason this isn't celebrated enough is because too many are reliant on the freebies provided by the government and too many take their cushy comfortable life handed to them for granted. If you lived in a third world country you would kill to come a place where you could be helped and still have the opportunity to pursue whatever lifestyle you wanted. Most are disappointed when they do come because most people believe they are sheep indoctrinated into slaving their life away for money. In the information and technology age this system is becoming even more sustainable, opportunities to start businesses are rampantly rising, with today's factories now becoming the device in your hands, and artificial ai taking over the mundane jobs in the foreseeable future. Corruption, banks and control of information aside, (which is typical in any government throughout the ages) capitalism is a blessing.
It is sad that there are 'capitalistic pigs' that become greedy and profit off the sweat of someone else yes, but these are the ones that are made public and you see the most. Many successful business owners are actually not as greedy, believe in helping their fellow human beings, advancing the human race, filling needs and are quietly living their earned good life, donating to causes that rely on them.
Can you imagine a system that held Steve jobs, Mark zuckerberg, Jeff bezos and Elon musk back? We'd still be living in the farm/factory age. Lots here will dispute this but they probably don't know successful empathetic business owners while they are escaping life playing this game, or are under the boot of one, working for a dime of what they are actually worth. It's never too late to start monetizing that special skill you got in a much more profitable way but that requires change. A scary thought to most people but fortune favors the bold.
I have only really touched on the ideals that capitalism represents, and not the ideals of socialism which I believe have a lot of merit as well, but not as well as the promise that equal opportunity does. So while there's a lot of room to dispute the details and history of facts, I am not a political expert, or successful, but I know people who are and have influenced me on this belief, and I used to be very angry on this topic like you might be, reading this. It's good to stand for something with conviction. That being said I won't engage in a debate yet I believe there is always room for improvement in the system.
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby Crewl on Dec 20 2018, 8:57am

Some great discussion in the thread, but also some ratholes. I think it would be helpful to discuss profit motive and individualism, and also some basics about why markets tend to perform their function extremely well with the proper set of rules. Duggan touched this a little bit but I think it forms the core of his argument.

Prices and profit are information and incentives. They signal to us what is in demand, and tell us about the efficiency of the production.
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby Nate on Dec 20 2018, 10:24am

@Crewl

Good idea!

Some stats about the productivity and wage rates (US based):

Since 1970 Productivity has increased around 210%
Wages have increased only 109%

Let us discuss why?

My argument is mostly that the wage stat doesn’t account for the US policies for overtime pay for hourly wage workers and only use flat wage pay for the percentage.
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby AZ09-Hanzo on Dec 20 2018, 7:48pm

"Equal opportunity"... lmao 4 days(in a sad satirical kinda way lol). If you guys really did your research you'd know that's a load of crap. Socialism and capitalism both don't work and neither does any other form of governance currently. Until we have individual self reliance, free of corruption and greed, the world will just continue on with it's fate of a slow death... on a positive note though, atleast it's entertaining to watch it burn in the meantime XP
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby StealthGoat on Dec 20 2018, 8:11pm

AZ09-Hanzo wrote:"Equal opportunity"... lmao 4 days(in a sad satirical kinda way lol). If you guys really did your research you'd know that's a load of crap. Socialism and capitalism both don't work and neither does any other form of governance currently. Until we have individual self reliance, free of corruption and greed, the world will just continue on with it's fate of a slow death... on a positive note though, atleast it's entertaining to watch it burn in the meantime XP

I guess I’m lost on your definition of “work”
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby Grave on Dec 20 2018, 11:47pm

-STrEeT-HeARt_TrlGgErED_U- wrote:Capitalism aka a free enterprise market, meaning that each and every human being has the fair right to equally pursue happiness. From the lowest class to the highest, anyone can start a business or investment and not have their life dictated to them by the government on how they should live. The only reason this isn't celebrated enough is because too many are reliant on the freebies provided by the government and too many take their cushy comfortable life handed to them for granted. If you lived in a third world country you would kill to come a place where you could be helped and still have the opportunity to pursue whatever lifestyle you wanted. Most are disappointed when they do come because most people believe they are sheep indoctrinated into slaving their life away for money. In the information and technology age this system is becoming even more sustainable, opportunities to start businesses are rampantly rising, with today's factories now becoming the device in your hands, and artificial ai taking over the mundane jobs in the foreseeable future. Corruption, banks and control of information aside, (which is typical in any government throughout the ages) capitalism is a blessing.
It is sad that there are 'capitalistic pigs' that become greedy and profit off the sweat of someone else yes, but these are the ones that are made public and you see the most. Many successful business owners are actually not as greedy, believe in helping their fellow human beings, advancing the human race, filling needs and are quietly living their earned good life, donating to causes that rely on them.
Can you imagine a system that held Steve jobs, Mark zuckerberg, Jeff bezos and Elon musk back? We'd still be living in the farm/factory age. Lots here will dispute this but they probably don't know successful empathetic business owners while they are escaping life playing this game, or are under the boot of one, working for a dime of what they are actually worth. It's never too late to start monetizing that special skill you got in a much more profitable way but that requires change. A scary thought to most people but fortune favors the bold.
I have only really touched on the ideals that capitalism represents, and not the ideals of socialism which I believe have a lot of merit as well, but not as well as the promise that equal opportunity does. So while there's a lot of room to dispute the details and history of facts, I am not a political expert, or successful, but I know people who are and have influenced me on this belief, and I used to be very angry on this topic like you might be, reading this. It's good to stand for something with conviction. That being said I won't engage in a debate yet I believe there is always room for improvement in the system.



The world is not infinite therefore we cannot consume resources unsustainably infidently, it is denied by a certain political side but consumerism is economic suicide, its just long term, and veiled by short term gains. The damage is already visible, every generation after the baby boomers having less then the one before it, the slowly increasing sacrity of resources and the valuation of the stock holder over both the employees and the consumer causes companies to squeeze every single penny of profit they can from their business.
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby ISS_The_DirtyDugan_ISS on Dec 21 2018, 4:00am

Grave wrote:
The world is not infinite therefore we cannot consume resources unsustainably infidently, it is denied by a certain political side but consumerism is economic suicide, its just long term, and veiled by short term gains. The damage is already visible, every generation after the baby boomers having less then the one before it, the slowly increasing sacrity of resources and the valuation of the stock holder over both the employees and the consumer causes companies to squeeze every single penny of profit they can from their business.


Capitalism and consumerism are not the same thing. Capitalism is an economic system while consumerism is a motivator of behavior. In today’s world, the two are highly intertwined, but shouldn’t be confused as being the same. Just because today’s capitalist uses consumerism as a tool to generate profit and growth, doesn’t mean that 100 years from now that will remain true or that the psychology of consumerism will remain the same.

Does the socialist not consume raw materials? Does the socialist not produce goods and services that are consumed? I’m particularly interested in what consumerism looks like in China, a socialist economy. How much do they consume?

The argument that consumerism uses more and faster, isn’t relevant when the end sum is the the total depletion of resources. The difference however is capitalism utilizing free market principles has the ability to identify inefficiencies, develop a solution, monetize on it and isn’t hampered by bureaucratic red tape (respectfully of course).

Again, there is no denying that capitalism focuses on profit and growth and produces winners and losers. You cannot however, deny the opportunity capitalism creates nor its ability to identify inefficiencies and correct them.

There is a shift in the profit-at-all-costs philosophy however, as more companies are not solely focusing on profits as the main driver but are focusing on issues of scarcity, sustainability and people (consumer and worker alike). We also see employee owned models that are proving to be effective as well. Similarly, there are many companies that aren’t profit motivated in their current business model. Amazon being the best example.

I do understand the attraction to socialism. It sounds great, but it simply hasn’t worked. If you think I’m wrong, then I encourage you to move to a place where it’s in full practice and discover for yourself first hand. Perhaps you’ll prove me wrong...
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Re: Socialism vs Capitalism

Postby pk79 on Dec 21 2018, 7:35pm

Socialism alone is as bad an idea is as capitalism alone. The most workable system (not the best) at the moment for us is one that combines different economic and social practices into what we have now.

There are great socialist practices we use these days like:
Military
Emergency Services (fire truck, police, and ambulance)
Universal Healthcare - Which we also combine with Privatised Healthcare to get both systems.
Prisons
Education, the Government also provides us with non-interest accumulating loans that you don’t need to pay back until you earn over x amount a year.
Welfare benefits for single parents, sick, elderly, injured, disabled, and homeless.

All these are socialist ideas that we have implemented into society with amazing success within a capitalist framework.
A general term for this type of society is social democracy. It works very well for us.


As you may have seen above I included “(not the best)” in brackets, the truth is, there is no ‘best’ system of governance, every system works for different people dependant on their culture, society, and beliefs.

For some democracy is the best, for others fascism, some maybe prefer monarchies or dictatorships, communism.
There are so many different ways to rule throughout history and everyone had their own.
From Sparta to 16th Century Britain, USSR, Feudal Japan, Sultans of the Middle East, Greek Democracy, Roman Dictatorships/Senate, Nordic Social Democracy.

I could be here for hours naming every different type of ruling in history. They all worked until they didn’t, the same will happen to us, in 500 years our systems that we thought amazing and revolutionary will be nothing more than something people study so they don’t make the same mistakes we did.
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